Monday, June 11, 2012

5114.txt

cc: "Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364" <m.mcgarvieatXYZxyz.ac.uk>
date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:49:36 +0100
from: "Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\)" <David.PalmeratXYZxyz.ac.uk>
subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04)
to: "Phil Jones" <p.jonesatXYZxyz.ac.uk>

Phil,
I think what you suggest is fine; and the suggestion might do it.... We
don't have to 'manufacture' information but as this is more of a
'sub-set' one could argue that we aren't manufacturing it at all... I
had left this type of suggestion out originally but if you are happy to
extract the information, I think it a good idea to make the offer...

Cheers, Dave

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk]
>Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:00 PM
>To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
>Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364
>Subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04)
>
>
> Dave,
> I've modified this letter with tracker. If you think we
>shouldn't say
> the offer at the end, then omit that sentence.
> I've heard that requests for data are also being made in the USA
> and also Sweden (for some tree-ring series with the latter).
>
> Cheers
> Phil
>
>At 16:21 19/04/2007, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote:
>>Phil/Michael,
>>Here is the draft of the letter to Mr. Eschenbach for your review and
>>comment....
>>
>>Cheers, Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:16 PM
>> >To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
>> >Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364
>> >Subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04)
>> >
>> >
>> > Dave,
>> > I looked at the two requests whilst I was in Vienna earlier
>> > the week. The one I've already sent is simple and a reply
>> > should conclude the matter.
>> >
>> > For the other (Eschenbach) I can't produce a simple
>> > list with the information he wants. As I said I can
>> > produce a list of the sites we currently use. I think this
>> > would take about an hour to do. It isn't as simple as it
>> > sounds as I need to go through the list of stations in
>> > the database and extract those not used - which involves
>> > using 2 other files.
>> >
>> > What I can't do though is say what their sources are. I just
>> > don't have this information for the same reasons as in the
>> > other request. We didn't have the data storage resources in
>> > earlier decades to keep this information. It is also likely that
>> > quite a few stations are a mixture of sources.
>> >
>> > Also, he fails to realise that GHCN and NCAR are databases
>> > and the ultimate source of all data is the respective NMS in the
>> > country where the station is located. Even GHCN and NCAR
>> > can't say where they got their data. They will say it
>comes from each
>> > NMS, but they know (and I do) that some comes from scientists
>> > in the country.
>> >
>> > So, what he's asking for isn't possible - not for UEA (and not
>> > for GHCN and NCAR as they are not the original source).
>> >
>> > So, if you want to draft a letter, use the above. I
>don't want to
>> > waste the hour's work, as he won't be satisfied with what
>I produce,
>> > because it won't include the sources.
>> >
>> > As I said earlier away next week, also the two weeks
>after except
>> > for April 30 and May 1.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Phil
>> >
>> >
>> >At 17:14 17/04/2007, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote:
>> >>Phil,
>> >>Thanks for your prompt reply. Is the list of stations in a
>> >format close
>> >>to what Mr. Eschenbach desires? We are under no obligation to
>> >>'manufacture' information but if we can make it understandable with
>> >>minimum effort I think that would be to everyone's advantage.
>> >>Specifically is the list of stations in any way linked to the
>> >"the name
>> >>and WMO number of each site and the location of the source
>data (NCAR,
>> >>GHCN, or National Met Service)" that he desires?
>> >>
>> >>If we have the data in this form, we have to produce it....
>> >>
>> >>Cheers, Dave
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >From: P.JonesatXYZxyz.ac.uk [mailto:P.Jones@uea.ac.uk]
>> >> >Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:01 PM
>> >> >To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
>> >> >Cc: Jones Philip Prof (ENV); Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364
>> >> >Subject: Re: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04)
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave,
>> >> > If all he wants is a list of the stations then I can
>> >> > probably send him this. It his going to do him
>> >> > absolutely no good to get this though.
>> >> > I guess if he gets this information he will
>> >> > at least be able to see that 98% of the data are
>> >> > in the other archives.
>> >> > I'm in Vienna next week, Geneva the on after this.
>> >> > I'm not back in CRU for a week until the one after
>> >> > May 11. He will just have to wait.
>> >> >
>> >> > There are not significant differences from
>> >> > the GHCN nor the GISS datasets. Ask him how he
>> >> > defines significant.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers
>> >> > Phil
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Phil/Michael,
>> >> >> As expected, Mr. Eschenbach is not satisfied with our
>most recent
>> >> >> letter. I guess the essential question is whether we have
>> >> >the list of
>> >> >> actual sites used for HadCRUT3, and if not, who does.... I
>> >> >would like to
>> >> >> avoid a formal appeal process here that will simply result
>> >> >in where we
>> >> >> are at now with the possibility of further appeal to
>the ICO....
>> >> >> If the information as Mr. Eschenbach describes simply
>> >does not exist
>> >> >> here, we can report that and I will, if he still doesn't
>> >agree, start
>> >> >> the formal process of the appeal....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers, Dave
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ________________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: Willis Eschenbach [mailto:willis@taunovobay.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 2:03 AM
>> >> >> To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Mr. Palmer:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thank you for your response. However, it does not solve the
>> >> >problem. In
>> >> >> your original response you said:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Your request for information received on 28
>> >September now been
>> >> >> considered and I can report that the information requested
>> >> >is available
>> >> >> on non-UEA websites as detailed below.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Global Historical Climatology Network
>(GHCN-Monthly) page
>> >> >> within US National Climate Data Centre website provides one
>> >> >of the two
>> >> >> US versions of the global dataset and includes raw
>> >station data. This
>> >> >> site is at:
>> >> >> http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/ghcn-monthly/index.php
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This page is where you can get one of the two US
>> >versions of the
>> >> >> global dataset, and it appears that the raw station data can
>> >> >be obtained
>> >> >> from this site.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Datasets named ds564.0 and ds570.0 can be found at
>> >The Climate &
>> >> >> Global Dynamics Division (CGD) page of the Earth and
>Sun Systems
>> >> >> Laboratory (ESSL) at the National Center for Atmospheric
>> >> >Research (NCAR)
>> >> >> site at: http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/tn404/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Between them, these two datasets have the data
>which the UEA
>> >> >> Climate Research Unit (CRU) uses to derive the HadCRUT3
>> >analysis. The
>> >> >> latter, NCAR site holds the raw station data (including
>> >> >temperature, but
>> >> >> other variables as well). The GHCN would give their set of
>> >> >station data
>> >> >> (with adjustments for all the numerous problems).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They both have a lot more data than the CRU have
>(in simple
>> >> >> station number counts), but the extra are almost entirely
>> >within the
>> >> >> USA. We have sent all our data to GHCN, so they do, in fact,
>> >> >possess all
>> >> >> our data.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In accordance with S. 17 of the Freedom of
>> >Information Act 2000
>> >> >> this letter acts as a Refusal Notice, and the reasons for
>> >> >exemption are
>> >> >> as stated below
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Exemption Reason
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> s. 21, Information accessible to
>applicant via other
>> >> >> means Some information is publicly available on
>> >external websites
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> While it is good to know that the data is available at
>> >those two web
>> >> >> sites, that information is useless without a list of
>> >stations used by
>> >> >> Jones et al. to prepare the HadCRUT3 dataset. As I said in
>> >> >my request, I
>> >> >> am asking for:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1) A list of the actual sites used by Dr. Jones in the
>> >> >> preparation of the HadCRUT3 dataset, and
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2) A clear indication of where the data for each site is
>> >> >> available. This is quite important, as there are significant
>> >> >differences
>> >> >> between the versions of each site's data at e.g. GHCN
>and NCAR."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Without knowing the name and WMO number of each site and the
>> >> >location of
>> >> >> the source data (NCAR, GHCN, or National Met Service),
>it is not
>> >> >> possible to access the information. Thus, Exemption 21 does
>> >> >not apply -
>> >> >> I still cannot access the data.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't understand why this is so hard. All I am asking for
>> >> >is a simple
>> >> >> list of the sites and where each site's data is located.
>> >> >Pointing at two
>> >> >> huge piles of data and saying, in effect, "The data is in there
>> >> >> somewhere" does not help at all.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To clarify what I am requesting, I am only asking for a
>> >list of the
>> >> >> stations used in HadCRUT3, a list that would look like this:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> WMO# Name Source
>> >> >> 58457 HangZhou NCAR
>> >> >> 58659 WenZhou NCAR
>> >> >> 59316 ShanTou GHCN
>> >> >> 57516 ChongQing NMS
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> etc. for all of the stations used to prepare the HadCRUT3
>> >temperature
>> >> >> data.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That is the information requested, and it is not available
>> >> >"on non-UEA
>> >> >> websites", or anywhere else that I have been able to find.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I appreciate all of your assistance in this matter, and I
>> >> >trust we can
>> >> >> get it resolved satisfactorily.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> w.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ________________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >> on 4/12/07 5:22 AM, Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) at
>David.Palmer@uea.ac.uk
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mr. Eschenbach,
>> >> >> Further to my letter of 15 March, I attach further
>> >information
>> >> >> regarding your email of 8 March and the appeal of our
>> >decision of 13
>> >> >> February. Don't hesitate to contact me with queries
>or concerns.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers, Dave Palmer
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <<Further _information_letter_070411.doc>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ____________________________
>> >> >> David Palmer
>> >> >> Information Policy Officer
>> >> >> University of East Anglia
>> >> >> Norwich, England
>> >> >> NR4 7TJ
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >Prof. Phil Jones
>> >Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
>> >School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
>> >University of East Anglia
>> >Norwich Email p.jonesatXYZxyz.ac.uk
>> >NR4 7TJ
>> >UK
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>Prof. Phil Jones
>Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
>School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
>University of East Anglia
>Norwich Email p.jonesatXYZxyz.ac.uk
>NR4 7TJ
>UK
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------
>
>

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